# FIGHTING CANES



## CV3

I have been reading about on fighting canes the last few days. And thought I would make some canes that could fall into that category. The Shillelagh is the classic fighting stick. There are a lot of different ones on the web. Our typical hook cane can work as a self defiance weapon but can be made more effective by lessening the curve of the hook and cutting it in such a way to leave a point on the end of the curve. I did this with this 1” diameter walnut hook cane. It will still hang on a chair and is good to walk with. I also drilled a 5”deep ½” hole in the bottom of the cane and installed a ½” all thread in the hole with epoxy. To give a little extra weight the end of a swing. I am going to texture much of the body of the cane so it will be less slippery in the hand. I should have made the cut to the outside of the of the cane handle instead of the inside. It would be a stronger point. I have some other Ideas for straight handles cane that could be used for fighting or self-defense devices. I would like to see or hear others thoughts and canes that focus on self-defense. We old men need all the help we can get.


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## gdenby

There was a thread some months ago "Thoughts on stick for city walking, possible defense..." that ended up getting rather nasty. There was a fellow who went by "Nameless" whose main objection was that if you are feeble enough to feel the need for a stick, the use of one will probably be ineffective, if not worse, because an assailant could just grab it away.

I'm not certain that is quite correct, but I must admit that I have enough joint problems, grip being one, that I would be hesitant to engage in a fight.

But here is what I can offer.

Decades ago, when I was training in martial arts, I learned something very useful, the hard way. There is a minimum radius that one must maintain. For younger folks, there is about a 3/4 second lag in response. What this means is that if one is close enough that a blow can be struck in that time, the hit will come before there is any consciousness of it coming in. What I learned the hard way was that sparing w. a fellow of almost the same age and size, he could kick me in the head before I could effectively block him.

To apply this to a fighting stick, longer is better. A jabbing motion to keep the attacker as far away as possible buys time.

The length of the stick also increases the angular momentum. Pre conquest shillelagh were long enough to be fatal. Later, adding a lead weight compensated for legal shorter lengths.

If one looks at a Chinese bo staff, they tend to be 5 - 6 feet long, and made from a wood that flexes without snapping. The best No. Am wood appears to be hickory, far and away. Very hard, and very resistant to snapping from sideways force. Reasonable light.

When I was practicing martial arts, a superior belt, who was ferociously strong, showed his father a manual on fighting w. a cane. His father had been using a cane for some years, and was comfortable with it. He was able to fend off attacks from his son, altho I always supposed it wasn't an all out battle.

That said, check out the British invention called "Baritsu." I suppose one should be able to match the range of motion shown, and be able to keep it up for a minute.

My opinion is that at present, even given the best stick, I can't muster enough skill to last more than a few blows. At best, I hope carrying a stick is at least a little daunting.

I suspect pepper spray might be more useful. An old union man suggested just carrying a big bar of soap in a sock. A good swing would knock anyone silly, leave no more than a bruise, and if questioned, the evidence was that one was just going to take a shower.


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## cobalt

lets face it it would make you sweat all that fighting so the soap would be useful ?


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## CV3

I spent a few years in maritial arts too. And I know there are times I may not be able to over come. But I am not a person to just be a target. As a old Marine its not in my dna. And I think we can be prepared. Not long ago a wwII vet defended him self from two mugers with his cane both had to go th the ER. Old not feeble. I am active with tai chi it helps with the arthritus and mobility. Its not about looking for trouble it is about trying to be ready as you can if it comes. In todays world and in my area there is a good chance depending on the time and place trouble will find you. It go's with out saying some commonsense should be a part of any choices to fight. I like having a cane in my hand.


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## MJC4

. I believe it was Teddy Roosevelt who made the phrase "speak softly and carry a big stick" popular. I think we can update that expression to "walk with confidence and carry a big stick".

The ne'er do wells that prey on their fellow man are usually looking for an easy mark. These types don't want to mess with a man or woman that carry themselves in a confident manner and has a big honkin' piece of hardwood in their hand.

I can't speak for anyone else but I do suspect most of us are not in the type of shape to carry out a prolonged battle. The stick or cane I carry isn't for combat. If I can't avoid confrontation then it's my last line of defense and I hope the poke I administer is enough of a deterrent to let me walk away.


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## Rustic Dave

My self-defense focus is that against varmints I might come across in the forest...mountain lions, coyotes, and black bears. I think pepper spray may be one of the best tools, but in case of a surprise attack a stick in hand is going to be faster than a quick draw of spray or handgun from a holster or pocket. And I very much agree that hickory, "impact grade" hickory, is the best common wood in the USA. Check out the impact tools at your local hardware store...sledgehammers, axes, etc, are made from hickory.

Several years ago, at the dawn of my quest for the best self-defense staff, I had a surprise encounter with a large black bear at 20 yards that had not run off from three large barking dogs...the pretty, slim, light store bought staff felt like a wet noodle in my hand!

So I've experimented with various materials, sizes, and weights of staff...starting with a martial arts "jo" of about 51 inches. It first of all has to be a suitable hiking stick, but short enough to swing effectively like a baseball bat, and heavy enough to provide a solid thump to dissuade a varmint without breaking. And if one is to deliver a sharp blow in self-defense, there should be some practice before hand to ensure a reasonable strong strike. With my practice, I've come to the conclusion that 22-24 ounces is too light, and that something in the range of 30 ounces is best, either a hiking stick or a walking stick (shillelagh style).

Here is a picture of sticks that were too light...the quality impact grade hickory is 15/16 inches diameter, and the Doug-fir sticks are thicker but still too light. And the second picture is that of my shillelagh style walking sticks...the "hammer", second from the right, is 32 ounces and I think will crush any other stick or baseball bat, and will provide a solid thump to any varmit. But, alas, it does look more like a weapon than a cane...it is my favorite practice stick.


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## CAS14

On my leave after graduating from Marine Corps boot camp, MCRD San Diego, I visited my grandparents at their farm in southern Oklahoma. My granddad was a WWI veteran and my hero.

As we sat on the porch talking, I think my braggadocio was a bit too much. He just chuckled and said "I'll bet on an old man with a good shillelagh over some young toughs any day." I've never forgotten that. I now have a good shillelagh at the bedside, non-traditional wood, but I would use it just as I was trained with pugil sticks in boot camp.


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## Rad

+1 with CAS and his Granddad! I like the old guy and I didn't even know him!


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## CAS14

Now this is entertaining, especially near the end:


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## cobalt

drunken is the right description lol


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## Silenthunder

CV3, if I might I would like to contribute my own two cents in the matter of combat canes.

There are many types of combat canes on the market, each one having it's own appeal to the person who may be using it. There are "shark's teeth" and different types of grips and even metal canes made to look like a wooden cane. I guess this speaks to the times that we live in.

I respect the fact that the canes you choose to make are of your own design and the decision on whether or not to employ them on a daily basis is an individual one, made according to the particular circumstances that you might find yourself in at any given moment. I, personally, carry a hickory stock-man's cane. It has served me well.

That being said, one area that many over look and that bears thinking over is justifying your use on a cane on another person after the fact.

One of the first questions that will be addressed is; "is your cane a walking device or a weapon?" If it is a weapon or may be construed as a weapon you may find yourself in the same situation as countless other cane aficionados in finding yourself on the business end of a criminal charge of aggravated assault. It happens and it happens more frequently than many might like to imagine. Please check your state laws closely.

I enter the above caution based upon your statement above, " I also drilled a 5"deep ½" hole in the bottom of the cane and installed a ½" all thread in the hole with epoxy. To give a little extra weight the end of a swing." That, my friend, is considered to be a "loaded" cane and therefore, a weapon.

It has been my own experience and practice that "plain is good" as far as my own canes are concerned. I can justify my own cane as a walking aid and after some twenty odd years of carrying it, I have yet to have to use it in an offensive manner. Just the simple possession of my cane provides me with a great deal of deterrence to trouble and I practice with it on a daily basis as a part and parcel of my own exercise program.

I have even used public transportation as a part of my practice on learning how to move from one place to another in the least conspicuous manner possible. There is a lot to be said for being able to blend in.

I want you to understand that I am sharing my own experiences and not trying to dictate to you in any manner. It must be understood and thought out that if you are forced to use your cane on another person, especially if that person is not armed you may have to justify your actions to the police and possibly even the courts.

It has always been my own understanding that the highest form of martial art is the avoidance of violence.

All the best........


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## CAS14

Silenthunder said:


> CV3, if I might I would like to contribute my own two cents in the matter of combat canes.
> 
> There are many types of combat canes on the market, each one having it's own appeal to the person who may be using it.


True! Not a cane but an interesting weapon here. Remember those folding entrenching tools from your military days? The Republic of Korea sent over 300,000 warriors to fight by our sides in Vietnam. They applied an e-tool in combat.

I was one of a 1, 2, or 3 Marine team that was attached to each Korean Marine company or to their recon platoon. When inside the wire, they practiced taekwondo nearly daily. Not at a high level, just basic forms. They had a habit of sharpening their e-tools.

In February 1967, the NVA decided they would kick the 2D ROK Marine Brigade out of the country. They began with 11th Co., 3D Bn. at a hill near the village of Trabinhdong in far western Binh Son Province. Two NVA regiments (about our batallion size I think), and a VC unit attacked 11th Co. from three directions. This was before we decimated them in 1968, they were then a well-trained professional force.

Within hours they were inside the wire, and hand-to-hand ensued. Taekwondo, sometimes augmented with those sharpened e-tools. A new form of stick fighting, right? They were turned and ran. Their arty and our ANGLICO team were then able to call in support that wiped out hundreds more. The Koreans lost fewer than 40. The ANGLICO team consisted of Dave Long and "Jungle" Jim Porta, both good friends of mine. I heard the stories first hand when I arrived at Trabinhdong in Nov. 1967. This was the Iwo Jima of the Korean Marine Corps. It is well documented in both English and Hangul.

And yes, both the Korean and Okinawan styles of karate emphasize that fighting should be the last option. I walk with a stick because so many jerks let aggressive dogs out on the streets unleashed here. I have a stout stick or two around the house for possible home invasion, and I will not hesitate to use them. I go on the assumption that anyone who breaks into my home intends to do us harm.


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## Silenthunder

Thank you for your service to our country.

The urban jungle that is Houston provides fodder and education (street smarts) for anyone wishing to engage leaving the safety of their home and venturing out.

I, personally, spend a lot of time talking with and in a few instances working with senior citizens living in this area. I have found the experience rewarding.

Take care and thank you again.


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## cobalt

Most of the americans who vist here always are so proud of there country and never talk about the violence ,i understand it happens ,same here , but i do think that the media is much to blame for making people think like this.

The last american i was speaking to she would have made a good publicty person praising the wonders of your country ,have to agree some amazing places ..and makes you want to vist some of them,It just makes my bucket list longer

The rockys ,yellowstone park and the grand cannon are so appeaiing, but theres so much more , just like here always more to see and enjoy.I just love visting some of out coast line much to offer and enjoy from the craiggy rocks of cornwal to the bleak moreland down to the fens.

My daughter worked in new york for 2 years never once did she talk of any trouble over there just said how friendly she found people, have to agree with those i have meet.But like all large citys there will be that eliment in some districts.

I did meet some old vets some time ago when they where visting the places where there fathers talked about ,they where touring europe and looking at old battle fields etc , nice people , to many perished in that conflict like vietnam and afganistan. The trops of all nationalitys command a lot of respect and the majority of people are proud of them as we do owe them a lot for there sacrifices.

But pleased that the troops are pulling out of afgan but wonder what will happen there when they go.

I have seen some videos of stick fighting and know some people use it as excercise ,but some appear to promote aggression and seems very unhealthy


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## CAS14

cobalt said:


> but some appear to promote aggression and seems very unhealthy


I agree wholeheartedly that to encourage the demons within is very unhealthy. Conversely to seek inner peace can be very beneficial. If one's better nature can prevail, then some defensive skill is a good insurance policy. Buddhist monks in some regions have demonstrated that. But aggression is a dangerous traight except during war.


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## CV3

CAS14
I left Vietnam in Feb 67. I was with 1st Engineer's, 1st Marines Div in Chu Lai. We landed in Nov. 65. I think it was fall of 66, I was with the convoy taking the Roc's to their CP South of Chu Lai. Small world!


CAS14 said:


> Silenthunder said:
> 
> 
> 
> CV3, if I might I would like to contribute my own two cents in the matter of combat canes.
> The Republic of Korea sent over 300,000 warriors to fight by our sides in Vietnam. They applied an e-tool in combat.
> 
> In February 1967, the NVA decided they would kick the 2D ROK Marine Brigade out of the country. They began with 11th Co., 3D Bn. at a hill near the village of Trabinhdong in far western Binh Son Province. Two NVA regiments (about our batallion size I think), and a VC unit attacked 11th Co. from three directions. This was before we decimated them in 1968, they were then a well-trained professional force.
Click to expand...


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## CV3

I have to say I am a bit supersized at all the issues this post has generated. In my first post I just shared what I was doing to have a cane that could be a fighting stick and ask if any one else had made any.

There is not blood in the streets here. Mobile is a nice city. But like other cities of its size, that are growing as fast as it is, We do have muggings on occasions. With the volunteer work I do I am often in areas where that is more likely than others. My state has very liberal carry laws. But in public areas you never really have a clear field of fire. Innocent people are always near by, often times kids. Sense I carry a cane for support anyway it makes sense to make it functional as a self defense tool. I have not gone looking for a fight sense I stopped drinking 37 years ago.


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## CAS14

Seldom do I hear of any altercations here in Tulsa except in a few extremely poor areas and late night outside of certain bars. I don't think I'll ever experience a home invasion. Firearms must be locked up tight because of frequent visits by grandchildren and anything but a shotgun could penetrate several walls and harm an innocent neighbor. All I'd have to grab in a matter of seconds is one of my stouter sticks. That's highly unlikely to occur.

However, I have encountered some very aggressive dogs on the loose and incidents are reported from time to time. Sticks are a deterrent.

Mostly for me, a stick is a stabilizer when climbing up or down rocky outcrops and for brushing aside thorny thickets in the woods when looking for more stick material or just observing nature. Now that all the family have sticks, those family outings sticks in hand, create some great memories. A family that sticks together...............well, how does that go? ????


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## cobalt

Lucky man cas family outings hiking wish i could do that with my girls there overseas.
I also use the stick in the same manner .
But make sticks for other people ,i think they see them as a extension of there personality and like the individual styles they choose

I think using the stick as a weapon will cause a lot of controversy anywhere like guns so this is not a argument for me lol .I do belive however every man has a right to defend himeself with resonable force.
Most of the martial arts videos just show aggresion hardly any mention discilpine which must be at the centre of it ,after all it should be the last resort


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## gdenby

Seldom do I hear of any altercations here in Tulsa except in a few extremely poor areas and late night outside of certain bars. I don't think I'll ever experience a home invasion. Firearms must be locked up tight because of frequent visits by grandchildren and anything but a shotgun could penetrate several walls and harm an innocent neighbor. All I'd have to grab in a matter of seconds is one of my stouter sticks. That's highly unlikely to occur.

However, I have encountered some very aggressive dogs on the loose and incidents are reported from time to time. Sticks are a deterrent.

Mostly for me, a stick is a stabilizer when climbing up or down rocky outcrops and for brushing aside thorny thickets in the woods when looking for more stick material or just observing nature. Now that all the family have sticks, those family outings sticks in hand, create some great memories. A family that sticks together...............well, how does that go?

Tulsa seems a good bit safer than where I live.

Altercations are pretty common. Had 4 squad cars sitting outside a rental property down the block a few months ago, after which a very large and nasty fellow wasn't seen again. I was glad. He seemed to be beating one of his kids really badly, and I had to remind myself that walking a few houses over and asking him what the H___ he thought he was doing would not be good. But at least no on the block has been shot for a few years. No home invasions near me, nothing worth invading, but some burglary. Haven't had a bank robbery since the bank moved away.

There are more and more older folks using store bought canes. There are a few that carry real wood. Saw a fellow w. a shillelagh at the grocery yesterday. It obviously was for support. But I do sometimes see guys carrying sticks who obviously do not need them for support, and who don't seem to be using them much as an element of style.

For me, even though my joints would fly apart on their own if I tried to fight much, I do carry a stick because of dogs. Fewer around here now than earlier, but they seem to be divided between little yappy dogs and fierce brutes who seem to want a fight. I also carry an ultrasonic "dog zapper" sometimes.


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## Rad

I've pretty much stayed out of this one because of the heat the subject seems to generate! For me, I live in a safe, tranquil, beautiful part of our great country! That being said -- I have the right and even the obligation to protect my family -- and if the need arose I would do so even at the cost of my own life!

I'm also a hunter and enjoy the shooting sports, but turning a weapon on another human being would be the absolutely last resort -- I would probably hesitate too long and suffer for it! Thankfully, the odds of that ever happening are almost 0%. I'm not the violent type, but I do enjoy collecting weapons of various kinds, also making them -- and I have some unique ones.

In my opinion -- when it comes to fighting sticks -- a simple hooked, solid oak cane is the most effective for defence. If I was confronted on the street by a thug who wanted my wallet I would give them my wallet! If I was confronted on the street by someone wanting my life, I would make them pay for it as dearly as possible -- trained or not! I would rather try than not try at all.

Well, I've probably said too much! And that probably happened in the first sentence! Sorry!


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## cobalt

Think that goes for pretty much everyone , but totally agree with you. So you shouldnt be sorry

Every one is entiled to the opinion agree with it or not, and no one should modify there views to suit others, that what freedom of speech s about.


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