# Glue



## CAS14

First, I'll make note of my limited experiences with various cementing agents.

Perhaps because my philosophy has been one of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it", I've tried only a few options for cementing various components of sticks.

Most frequently, I use two structural expoxy's that I buy at Woodcraft, one that sets up in a day (T-88) and one that sets up in less than an hour (QuickCure 5, advertised as a five-minute cure). These are made by the same company and they seem to bond together well. For example, if I embed a pin or tie tack into a stick, I'd typically use a forstner bit to make a hole, if the pin on the back of the item is off center, then I'd drill a hole for that, and finally I'd use the T-88 to cement the item in place. If the item needs a top coating for protection, I usually go to the QuickCure 5, which is made by the same manufacturer as the T-88, and it seems to bond well. Both these are clear epoxies.

I've tried adding dyes to the T-88, and I have probably added too much as the cured epoxy surface was a bit dull. The Woodcraft guys here recommended their CA Titebond when using their dyes, and for many of my applications, but I'm stubborn and so far I've mostly stuck with epoxies. Maybe it's because I just enjoy doing things the hard way.

For metal to metal, for example when bonding a threaded insert to the wood within a brass ferrule, I use JB Weld, and so far all those have held. I just wanted to bond the threads in the wood such that unscrewing tips for replacement wouldn't loosen the insert.

==============================

So, today's project is for my lil' sis, who is nearing retirement. This has been delayed for nine months, and I'm just getting back into this. About a year ago, my brother, sister, and I, along with our families, spent an enjoyable few days at my brother's east Texas place not far from Fairfield. I harvested a number of eastern red cedar to use for sticks for family members, and they each picked out the ones they liked best and the length that they preferred for the final product.

I need to use the lowermost part of this cedar stick to have sufficient length. It is too narrow and a little crooked for about the lowermost five inches. I'm trying to decide whether to use JB Weld, epoxy, or something else to fill a significant gap between a 5" copper ferrule and the wood. (Brass tubing shown.) what say you?

The glue isn't going to show, so JB Weld is what I'm thinking. I will have rasp the diameter of the stick down so that the copper ferrule fits flush at about five inches from the base, and then clamp everything in place because there will be some play and I will need to control the orientation as it dries. The issue is, where there is perhaps 1/8" (?) gap inside the ferrule, between the wood and the copper, what glue/cement is least likely to shrink or crack in a relatively wide gap?


----------



## CAS14

Lil' Sis's stick, two weeks ago:


----------



## JJireh

I would think the JB would be fine for that, since it doesn't really matter anyway(I have noticed that sometimes, if there isn't enough air to the mixture, it doesn't always completely harden). Unless there is significant wiggle becasue of the gap, I wouldn't worry about what's inside at all.


----------



## CAS14

JJireh said:


> I would think the JB would be fine for that, since it doesn't really matter anyway(I have noticed that sometimes, if there isn't enough air to the mixture, it doesn't always completely harden). Unless there is significant wiggle becasue of the gap, I wouldn't worry about what's inside at all.


Thanks! That's what I was thinking too, and I could use a stiff wire to shove down and help to work the JB down all the way.  Painter's tape around the area where the upper end of the ferrule meets the wood ought to stabilize that and prevent the dark gray JB from oozing out and staining the wood.


----------



## cobalt

Thats one big ferule. to fit to a shank.

you will gave to post pics when you do it please.


----------



## CAS14

Roger that Cobalt. Life intervened today but we have our last warm day tomorrow and I have only a haircut.


----------



## MJC4

CAS14

I recently switched from 2 part epoxy to using Gorilla glue for securing toppers to staff. The Gorilla glue expands as it dries. It might be just the ticket for filling the void in your ferrule.

By the by welcome back!

Mark


----------



## CV3

I attach all my handles and toppers using threaded rod using Gorilla glue. It is 100% water proof. Because it dose expand it will fill a grip the threaded rod and fill into the wood. There is a learning curve when you start using it. It is easy to use to much and have some ooze to clean up. It well require clamping. I use a pipe clamp for holding the handle in place.

On your ferrule, I would uses piece of scrap just a little shorter than the ferrule. Then drill a hole with your forester bit the size of the thin end of stick. Cut it in half long ways so you have two half circles trim out side of the half circle down tell you have two shim you can fit in side your ferrule and around your thin end of your stick Covering both sides of the shims with gorilla glue and inserting them. Eliminating any chance of thin end of the stick moving around in side the ferrule.


----------



## CAS14

I've used Gorilla glue but not on a stick. I didn't know about the ultimate strength, just do to lack of experience. I may try that, I'll do a little research. Thanks for all the feedback, gents.


----------



## cobalt

I have never heard of gorilla glue must be just american . sound s like a sticky situation?


----------



## CV3

cobalt said:


> I have never heard of gorilla glue must be just american . sound s like a sticky situation?


I am sure you can get it in the UK. Goggled gorilla glue UK. If you get some I recommend you do some test with scrap. I think it is great product but learning to dealing with the expansion as it drys requires some practices. You need to clamp the work most of the time. It will lift a topper if you use to much. Some do not like to use it because it can be more work. .


----------



## MJC4

I think I read somewhere polyurethane glues actually came to the U.S. from Europe. All the major adhesive companies are making a polyurethane glue with Gorilla glue being the brand that got the polyurethane glue ball rolling in the U.S.

I was skeptical about using it for stick making, but after the recent fiasco I had with 3 month old tubes of 5 minute epoxy flowing out of the plunger tubes unevenly and not curing, thought I'd give it whirl couldn't be any worse.

I like the ease of no mixing the Gorilla glue. I also like the way it expands and fills voids in a topper joint. It sands off clean as well and it can be wood burned.

The attached pic is the seem of the first Gorilla glued topper I recently installed on a stick. Didn't turn out half bad for my first go round with the stuff.

I had the stuff bulging out of the seem and it sanded off clean. (When it says use a thin layer, they mean a T-H-I-N layer. The old motto of if a little is good, more is better does not apply to this glue!! ) Wish I would have read some of you guys posts before I used it!


----------



## cobalt

You was correct in thinking its avaiable here its on amazon ,so bound to be on others sites.Biggest down side to the glue (from comments i have read on it)it appears to go off if theres air left in the bottle?


----------



## CAS14

I did go ahead with the JB Weld for the copper ferrule and the threaded insert in the end for replaceable tips. It seems solid. There wasn't as much space as I originally thought because the 1 inch tubing was too large and the next size down that was readily available was 3/4 inch diameter. That required only 4 3/8 inches of tubing as opposed to the 5 inches that the 1 inch would have required, and that will look better. I couldn't bend the stick as much as I had hoped but it still looks far better, acceptable I'd say.


----------



## cobalt

The shank looks okay . not to hard to straighten are they. its just when you get a knot where its bent you just cant straighten it then . a good job.

One thing about straightening them it does make the stronger to use , to bent and think there dangerous for the user if they are dependent on them.

This is another one of those items we never see here the use of the copper pipes , they look fine. .think its cheaper for us to use brass ferules copper pipe is pretty pricey here.


----------



## Gloops

I read an article on "woodworking tips" on Facebook, it was relative to gap filling glues, there concern when using expanding glues was that it can leave air bubbles/pockets in the joint which degrade the strength of joint.

the outcome of the investigation was that 2part epoxy glues came out best for filling gaps as the curing process is a chemical reaction creating a strong joint.


----------



## CAS14

I read something similar. In addition, the gaps weren't as large as I had feared. It's solid as a rock now with the JB Weld. I'm waiting on a postal delivery of a lapel pin that I ordered, so that I can embed it. Then several applications of Tung oil and I'm finished.


----------



## CV3

This is not a issue if you evenly apply the glue and properly clamp the work. There are just very minute area the glue can only expand into. And you get a very strong bond in the shaft. Epoxy is the same in the fact if is not properly applied you can end up with air gaps in the bond.


----------



## cobalt

The gorilla glue could be useful if you dont align the cenetre hole up correctly and have to redrill making the hole to big for the threaded bar. it would be useful if clamped correcly.


----------



## CAS14

I used painter's tape (similar to masking tape) to prevent JB Weld from oozing our and staining the wood. I coated the wood and the inside of the copper tubing. I pushed it on. After the tip was upward for some minutes, it settled downward a bit on onne side. I used a toothpick to work in a small amount more. The end result seems as good as it could be. I rigged up a drilling setup using a standard reducer coupling with a purchased device for drilling perpendicular holes. The insert was also glued with JB Weld. The replaceable tip screwed in as planned. I will send my little sis some hard rubber and some carbide replacements.


----------



## Gloops

cobalt said:


> The gorilla glue could be useful if you dont align the cenetre hole up correctly and have to redrill making the hole to big for the threaded bar. it would be useful if clamped correcly.


If I slip up with the hole drilling I Have in the past glued in a dowel and redrilled.


----------



## CAS14

For drilling a hole into the end of the stick, after I secure the ferrule (typically brass or copper pipe), I purchased the pictured guide from Woodcraft. This didn't work well for this purpose, as shown. However, standard pipe sizes also have standard coupling sizes, including couplings for joining pipes of different sizes. I found that those stainless steel guides will fit in certain couplings, and so the hole can be drilled perfectly along the axis of the ferrule.


----------



## cobalt

Not a bad little attachment , havnt seen those before. it would work alright for the threaded bar as well . Trouble is shanks ar`nt totally round

I have seen a attachment from axminster for centre drilling you just attach the drill to it , it should grip the shank okay and does allow you to drill a straight hole but as the things ar`nt round .

I just look for the center core of the shank and use hand and eye, bit of a pain when you dont get it right ., but not usually far of so can carve the neck of the topper to allow for it.


----------



## Gloops

I use a standard center guide, the one with the V shape and scribe min 3 lines, if the shank is not round it gives a small central area to see where to center pop it.


----------



## CV3

I also use a V center guide. It has been the best centering tool I have found. Even on out of round sticks.


----------



## cobalt

its not just centering its drilling straught, on odd occasions i just uesd expoxy putty. also have fitted dowel in to redrill. I will have to try the gorilla glue now i have seen it here.


----------

